new subject- learning blues classics note for note?

[Harpman]

Hi everyone, Happy holidays and a very happy new year. I am so glad to
see the group engaged again in conversation! I think this is the best
group I ever got involved with. Yesterday I came across a harmonica
site which had the entire music for Juke. It was 3 pages long,included
the notes and tabs. I looked at it and said to myself that it would take
me an entire year to learn and memorize that , and then if I worked
just on that daily for several hours each day. I have heard very few
harp players perform Juke and always wondered if they were playing it
exactly as Little Walter did.Do any of you do get involved in such
mentally strenuous exercises and if not, how does one learn that classic
with killing themselves.?Thanks. Allen

[JOB]

Hi everyone, Happy holidays and a very happy new year. I am so glad to see
the group engaged again in conversation! I think this is the best group I
ever got involved with. Yesterday I came across a harmonica site which
had the entire music for Juke. It was 3 pages long,included the notes and
tabs. I looked at it and said to myself that it would take me an entire
year to learn and memorize that , and then if I worked just on that daily
for several hours each day. I have heard very few harp players perform
Juke and always wondered if they were playing it exactly as Little Walter
did.Do any of you do get involved in such mentally strenuous exercises and
if not, how does one learn that classic with killing themselves.?Thanks.
Allen

Hi friend! - Why attempt to play like Little Walter played it - I mean note
for note - ? - He already did it quite decently (intended understatement),
so why not 'study' it and generate your own interpretation? - I myself would
never like to copy, but rather be inspired and 'do it my way' - seasonal
greetings from Denmark and JOB

[Harpman]

Post by JOB

Hi everyone, Happy holidays and a very happy new year. I am so glad to see
the group engaged again in conversation! I think this is the best group I
ever got involved with. Yesterday I came across a harmonica site which
had the entire music for Juke. It was 3 pages long,included the notes and
tabs. I looked at it and said to myself that it would take me an entire
year to learn and memorize that , and then if I worked just on that daily
for several hours each day. I have heard very few harp players perform
Juke and always wondered if they were playing it exactly as Little Walter
did.Do any of you do get involved in such mentally strenuous exercises and
if not, how does one learn that classic with killing themselves.?Thanks.
Allen

Hi friend! - Why attempt to play like Little Walter played it - I mean note
for note - ? - He already did it quite decently (intended understatement),
so why not 'study' it and generate your own interpretation? - I myself would
never like to copy, but rather be inspired and 'do it my way' - seasonal
greetings from Denmark and JOB

JOB, I agree with you whole heartedly. Allen

[Robert Reynolds]

I know a guy who is transcribing Charlie Parker jazz sax songs and solos
note for note so he can play them on the harmonica. It improves his
playing immensely. Unlike most of us, he is a professional musician and
harmonica teacher for a living.

I hear the same thing all the time, that it's a waste of time to learn
somebody else's music, and that you should express yourself instead.
This approach certainly works, but most great musicians got their start
by learning to play other people's music first.

I've noticed that the "do your own thing" attitude is quite common among
harmonica players. Piano, horn and string students are encouraged to
learn to read music and to play songs, and of course young guitar
players usually start off by playing known songs. Most harmonica
players don't seem to like this approach for some reason. And then they
complain when people don't think of the harmonica as a real instrument.

If you're up to the challenge, learn Walter's music note for note. I'll
bet you would put a real strain on your brain doing it. If you succeed,
you can consider it quite an accomplishment, and you will notice that
you have become a better musician. It never hurts to learn something new.

Of course after you learn classic songs you can still "do your own
thing", but you will just do it better. My friend who transcribes
Charlie Parker plays some really incredible jazz licks on his Marine
Band harps now. It's great stuff.

Post by Harpman
Hi everyone, Happy holidays and a very happy new year. I am so glad to
see the group engaged again in conversation! I think this is the best
group I ever got involved with. Yesterday I came across a harmonica
site which had the entire music for Juke. It was 3 pages long,included
the notes and tabs. I looked at it and said to myself that it would take
me an entire year to learn and memorize that , and then if I worked
just on that daily for several hours each day. I have heard very few
harp players perform Juke and always wondered if they were playing it
exactly as Little Walter did.Do any of you do get involved in such
mentally strenuous exercises and if not, how does one learn that classic
with killing themselves.?Thanks. Allen

[Ralf K. Buschner]

Hi Robbie,

Post by Robert Reynolds
I've noticed that the "do your own thing" attitude is quite common among
harmonica players. Piano, horn and string students are encouraged to
learn to read music and to play songs, and of course young guitar
players usually start off by playing known songs.  Most harmonica
players don't seem to like this approach for some reason.  And then they
complain when people don't think of the harmonica as a real instrument.

i think, that attitude ("i'm doing my own thing") is especially very usual
amongst beginners, that doesn't want to invest much time for learning and
practising. They rather pull air out of their harp in the I and V and blow
in the IV and while doing so, they shift it right and left, so they play
notes rather unintentionally, and then they call it "own style" or
something like that. That wouldn't work on a guitar or piano, but due to
the note layout of the harp, it works more or less on a harmonica, and i'm
convinced, that exactly this point is the reason for "real musicians" to
value the harp and harp players that low.
Once a blues guitar player really surprised me - he started to play "Mercy,
mercy, mercy" (a Joe Zawinul tune) in a jam session, i joined in, unisono
with him, he stopped to play and was very excited and said "Heyyy, that's
really the first time i meet a harp player that is able to play this
song!!!".

Hey, damn, that's a very simple tune - why shouldn't we harpsters be able to
play such a song? What bad experiences with harp players must a guitar
player have, to say such a thing! How bad do they judge us to be surprised,
when one can do a simple tune straight out?

cu,
Ralf

[Keith Adams]

Ralf . I dont think that the guitar player had much experience around
harmonica players at all? He was probably only used to jamming with his
brother in law or something. Music isnt a rigid thing. If you approach it
that way then it will show in your playing. You and everyone around you will
soon get bored with it. I've heard of many studio musicians who could only
play site read music. Sounds odd but it is indeed true.Take that away from
them and under their own admission they'll say they're lost. They cant
improvise at all. Whose the more valuable and better musician. The one whose
ear is trained and can play a reasonable facsimile of any song on the spur
of the moment or one who can play beautifully only if they have music in
front of them. I'll take the one with the trained ear anytime. They can
write their own music and are invaluable to someone who creates their own
songs.
Do any of you who agree with Robbie write songs?
Robbie doesnt because I believe its beyond his musical creativity level.
His rigidity keeps him from letting it go.

Post by Ralf K. Buschner
Hi Robbie,

Post by Robert Reynolds
I've noticed that the "do your own thing" attitude is quite common among
harmonica players. Piano, horn and string students are encouraged to
learn to read music and to play songs, and of course young guitar
players usually start off by playing known songs. Most harmonica
players don't seem to like this approach for some reason. And then they
complain when people don't think of the harmonica as a real instrument.

i think, that attitude ("i'm doing my own thing") is especially very usual
amongst beginners, that doesn't want to invest much time for learning and
practising. They rather pull air out of their harp in the I and V and blow
in the IV and while doing so, they shift it right and left, so they play
notes rather unintentionally, and then they call it "own style" or
something like that. That wouldn't work on a guitar or piano, but due to
the note layout of the harp, it works more or less on a harmonica, and i'm
convinced, that exactly this point is the reason for "real musicians" to
value the harp and harp players that low.
Once a blues guitar player really surprised me - he started to play "Mercy,
mercy, mercy" (a Joe Zawinul tune) in a jam session, i joined in, unisono
with him, he stopped to play and was very excited and said "Heyyy, that's
really the first time i meet a harp player that is able to play this
song!!!".
Hey, damn, that's a very simple tune - why shouldn't we harpsters be able to
play such a song? What bad experiences with harp players must a guitar
player have, to say such a thing! How bad do they judge us to be surprised,
when one can do a simple tune straight out?
cu,
Ralf

[Robert Reynolds]

Your argument is a classic example of the fallacy of the false
alternative. Improvisational playing and playing from sheet music are
not mutually exclusive. These are two different skills. Any person can
have one, the other, both or neither. Learning to play somebody else's
song can't hurt you. Learning songs is always helpful. Learning to
improvise is also helpful. A really great musician can do both.

Why do you believe that it has to be one or the other?

Post by Keith Adams
Ralf . I dont think that the guitar player had much experience around
harmonica players at all? He was probably only used to jamming with his
brother in law or something. Music isnt a rigid thing. If you approach it
that way then it will show in your playing. You and everyone around you will
soon get bored with it. I've heard of many studio musicians who could only
play site read music. Sounds odd but it is indeed true.Take that away from
them and under their own admission they'll say they're lost. They cant
improvise at all. Whose the more valuable and better musician. The one whose
ear is trained and can play a reasonable facsimile of any song on the spur
of the moment or one who can play beautifully only if they have music in
front of them. I'll take the one with the trained ear anytime. They can
write their own music and are invaluable to someone who creates their own
songs.
Do any of you who agree with Robbie write songs?
Robbie doesnt because I believe its beyond his musical creativity level.
His rigidity keeps him from letting it go.

Post by Ralf K. Buschner
Hi Robbie,

Post by Robert Reynolds
I've noticed that the "do your own thing" attitude is quite common among
harmonica players. Piano, horn and string students are encouraged to
learn to read music and to play songs, and of course young guitar
players usually start off by playing known songs. Most harmonica
players don't seem to like this approach for some reason. And then they
complain when people don't think of the harmonica as a real instrument.

i think, that attitude ("i'm doing my own thing") is especially very usual
amongst beginners, that doesn't want to invest much time for learning and
practising. They rather pull air out of their harp in the I and V and blow
in the IV and while doing so, they shift it right and left, so they play
notes rather unintentionally, and then they call it "own style" or
something like that. That wouldn't work on a guitar or piano, but due to
the note layout of the harp, it works more or less on a harmonica, and i'm
convinced, that exactly this point is the reason for "real musicians" to
value the harp and harp players that low.
Once a blues guitar player really surprised me - he started to play "Mercy,
mercy, mercy" (a Joe Zawinul tune) in a jam session, i joined in, unisono
with him, he stopped to play and was very excited and said "Heyyy, that's
really the first time i meet a harp player that is able to play this
song!!!".
Hey, damn, that's a very simple tune - why shouldn't we harpsters be able to
play such a song? What bad experiences with harp players must a guitar
player have, to say such a thing! How bad do they judge us to be surprised,
when one can do a simple tune straight out?
cu,
Ralf

[john]

Robbie.

I think you have it exactly right. Neither is exclusively 'correct'.

Some folks are programmed, pre-conditioned, right or left brained, or in
some other way, predisposed to different types of learning and
expression. Pre-existing skill sets or even different personality types
can make it easier to use one approach over another. Same goes for art,
and even for some some of the non-hard science issues. How doctors,
psychologists, and even botanists think is not a entirely a single
universal approach.
Intuition, pre-established neural circuitry, and hard wired genetics all
play a role. I've even seen amp techs approach diagnostics and design
very differently.

When I started playing the harp, I tried to copy and memorized tabs,
tunes, and 'great' licks, but didn't progress very well. It wasn't
until I got some jam tracks and improvised with them, that my playing
took on a different feel and sound that was more satisfying to me.

Now, I'm back to practicing well-defined licks, on occasion. Not that I
consciously try to play them in a tune, but more so they 'influence'
more of my innate playing style. I was a chief engineer for a F500
company, but now I try not to 'think' or 'solve' at any conscious level,
when playing. In fact, too much 'consciousness' make me lose my pucker,
rhythm, and/or place in the tune.

Whatever works well for one may not be best for another, but trying, and
using, even if not mastering, each way, certainly adds something to the
total experience.

Post by Robert Reynolds
Your argument is a classic example of the fallacy of the false
alternative. Improvisational playing and playing from sheet music are
not mutually exclusive. These are two different skills. Any person can
have one, the other, both or neither. Learning to play somebody else's
song can't hurt you. Learning songs is always helpful. Learning to
improvise is also helpful. A really great musician can do both.
Why do you believe that it has to be one or the other?

Post by Keith Adams
Ralf . I dont think that the guitar player had much experience around
harmonica players at all? He was probably only used to jamming with
his brother in law or something. Music isnt a rigid thing. If you
approach it that way then it will show in your playing. You and
everyone around you will soon get bored with it. I've heard of many
studio musicians who could only play site read music. Sounds odd but
it is indeed true.Take that away from them and under their own
admission they'll say they're lost. They cant improvise at all. Whose
the more valuable and better musician. The one whose ear is trained
and can play a reasonable facsimile of any song on the spur of the
moment or one who can play beautifully only if they have music in
front of them. I'll take the one with the trained ear anytime. They
can write their own music and are invaluable to someone who creates
their own songs.
Do any of you who agree with Robbie write songs?
Robbie doesnt because I believe its beyond his musical creativity
level. His rigidity keeps him from letting it go.

Post by Ralf K. Buschner
Hi Robbie,

Post by Robert Reynolds
I've noticed that the "do your own thing" attitude is quite common among
harmonica players. Piano, horn and string students are encouraged to
learn to read music and to play songs, and of course young guitar
players usually start off by playing known songs. Most harmonica
players don't seem to like this approach for some reason. And then they
complain when people don't think of the harmonica as a real instrument.

i think, that attitude ("i'm doing my own thing") is especially very usual
amongst beginners, that doesn't want to invest much time for learning and
practising. They rather pull air out of their harp in the I and V and blow
in the IV and while doing so, they shift it right and left, so they play
notes rather unintentionally, and then they call it "own style" or
something like that. That wouldn't work on a guitar or piano, but due to
the note layout of the harp, it works more or less on a harmonica, and i'm
convinced, that exactly this point is the reason for "real musicians" to
value the harp and harp players that low.
Once a blues guitar player really surprised me - he started to play "Mercy,
mercy, mercy" (a Joe Zawinul tune) in a jam session, i joined in, unisono
with him, he stopped to play and was very excited and said "Heyyy, that's
really the first time i meet a harp player that is able to play this
song!!!".
Hey, damn, that's a very simple tune - why shouldn't we harpsters be able to
play such a song? What bad experiences with harp players must a guitar
player have, to say such a thing! How bad do they judge us to be surprised,
when one can do a simple tune straight out?
cu,
Ralf

[Ralf K. Buschner]

Hi Keith,

happy New Year!

Post by Keith Adams
Ralf . I dont think that the guitar player had much experience around
harmonica players at all? He was probably only used to jamming with his
brother in law or something.

Naa, he often plays with harp players in jam sessions, but here aren't so
many of us. One of his best friends tries to master harmonica, but it's a
long way to tipperary - maybe hence his surprise.

Post by Keith Adams
Music isnt a rigid thing. If you approach it that way then it will show in
your playing. You and everyone around you will soon get bored with it.

I don't treat music as a rigid thing. When i have a bad day, i rather don't
play, instead of annoying the audience.

Post by Keith Adams
I've heard of many studio musicians who could only play site read music.
Sounds odd but it is indeed true.Take that away
from them and under their own admission they'll say they're lost. They
cant improvise at all. Whose the more valuable and better musician. The
one whose ear is trained and can play a reasonable facsimile of any song
on the spur of the moment or one who can play beautifully only if they
have music in front of them.
I'll take the one with the trained ear anytime. They can write their own
music and are invaluable to someone who creates their own songs.

I fully agree. Long time ago, when i was a young man, a clarinet player
wanted to become a member of our blues band. BUT we would have to give him
sheets of all of our songs, since he could only play written music...great
idea. :-) Our guitar player then explained to him, that he can be a good
friend even without playing our music... ;-)

Post by Keith Adams
Do any of you who agree with Robbie write songs?
Robbie doesnt because I believe its beyond his musical creativity level.
His rigidity keeps him from letting it go.

I don't think so. And i agree with Robbie, concerning the harpsters attitude
of "I don't need to learn the basics, because i'm defining my own basics!"
I can show you at least 5 (if not more) out of a bunch of 10 showing up this
attitude. The true reasons for that are different - some may try to impress
people with "creativity" (or what they call so), others are to lazy to
learn how to play a harmonica "the right way" (assumed a "right way"
exists, i'm talking about the basic techniques we have, like vibrato,
bendings, hand effects, single note playing and things like that.)

Those guys are able to blow air into a harp and suck air out of it, but they
have no idea how to get music out of it, and the result often is a wild
squeal without any sign of having understood the difference between noise
and music.

MAD sound rigid, but that's what i often see/hear, and i can really
understand those musicians, who refuse to play with harmonica players.
("What'chu play? Harmonica? No, thanks, wouldn't fit well into our concept,
ya know?").
Talk with'em about music first, show them, that you have a clue about music,
and they'll change their mind. Show them, that a harp is an instrument and
that it's player is a musician, and they're happy.

cu,
Ralf

[Keith Adams]

Robbie you're welcome to your opinion. It kind of bothers me that you say
it like its fact. The harmonica isnt a guitar ,piano or saxophone. On
those or any other instrument its really very easy to be able to see exactly
how a song is being played note for note. In the case of Juke it seems like
I only hear the original recording of it. I'm sure it must have been
recorded more than once though? If L W would have lived longer then you
would have seen that he himself didnt play it exactly the same every time.
Nobody does regardless of which instrument they play. If you dont think so
then its time that you started actually listening to other musicians.

Post by Robert Reynolds
I know a guy who is transcribing Charlie Parker jazz sax songs and solos
note for note so he can play them on the harmonica. It improves his
playing immensely. Unlike most of us, he is a professional musician and
harmonica teacher for a living.
I hear the same thing all the time, that it's a waste of time to learn
somebody else's music, and that you should express yourself instead. This
approach certainly works, but most great musicians got their start by
learning to play other people's music first.
I've noticed that the "do your own thing" attitude is quite common among
harmonica players. Piano, horn and string students are encouraged to
learn to read music and to play songs, and of course young guitar players
usually start off by playing known songs. Most harmonica players don't
seem to like this approach for some reason. And then they complain when
people don't think of the harmonica as a real instrument.
If you're up to the challenge, learn Walter's music note for note. I'll
bet you would put a real strain on your brain doing it. If you succeed,
you can consider it quite an accomplishment, and you will notice that you
have become a better musician. It never hurts to learn something new.
Of course after you learn classic songs you can still "do your own thing",
but you will just do it better. My friend who transcribes Charlie Parker
plays some really incredible jazz licks on his Marine Band harps now.
It's great stuff.

Post by Harpman
Hi everyone, Happy holidays and a very happy new year. I am so glad to
see the group engaged again in conversation! I think this is the best
group I ever got involved with. Yesterday I came across a harmonica site
which had the entire music for Juke. It was 3 pages long,included the
notes and tabs. I looked at it and said to myself that it would take me
an entire year to learn and memorize that , and then if I worked just on
that daily for several hours each day. I have heard very few harp players
perform Juke and always wondered if they were playing it exactly as
Little Walter did.Do any of you do get involved in such mentally
strenuous exercises and if not, how does one learn that classic with
killing themselves.?Thanks. Allen

[Fred Klingener]

Post by Robert Reynolds
I know a guy who is transcribing Charlie Parker jazz sax songs and solos
note for note so he can play them on the harmonica. It improves his
playing immensely. Unlike most of us, he is a professional musician and
harmonica teacher for a living.
...
I've noticed that the "do your own thing" attitude is quite common among
harmonica players. Piano, horn and string students are encouraged to
learn to read music and to play songs, and of course young guitar players
usually start off by playing known songs. Most harmonica players don't
seem to like this approach for some reason. And then they complain when
people don't think of the harmonica as a real instrument.
...

Rahsaan Roland Kirk (who was pretty comfortable around theory, raw
virtuosity, and invention) claimed that you had to know the rules to know
how to break them.

I transcribe and try to play the masters. but so far, even when I get close
to the notes, I'm nowhere near the music. It interests me to explore the
gap.

Cheers,
Fred

[Robert Reynolds]

Post by Fred Klingener
Rahsaan Roland Kirk (who was pretty comfortable around theory, raw
virtuosity, and invention) claimed that you had to know the rules to know
how to break them.

Yeah, that's the classic jazz metaphor I was looking for...

[Chromatonic]

<SNIP>so far, even when I get close
to the notes, I'm nowhere near the music. It interests me to explore the
gap.

Wow. That's golden. What a great perspective; thanks.
C

[Robert Reynolds]

Post by Harpman
it would take
me an entire year to learn and memorize that , and then if I worked
just on that daily for several hours each day.

I'd be willing to bet that once you start learning it you would realize
that a lot of techniques that are new to you would be repeated
throughout the song. In other words, it would be a strenuous exercise
in the beginning and then become easier as you go along.

[Chromatonic]

<SNIP>

Post by Harpman
I have heard very few
harp players perform Juke and always wondered if they were playing it
exactly as Little Walter did.Do any of you do get involved in such
mentally strenuous exercises and if not, how does one learn that classic
with killing themselves.?Thanks. Allen

Robert Reynolds has it exactly right - Learning from Masters like
Little Walter is a great way to do it., and the way that most of us go
about it. Once you've learned to play the notes like Walter (or
whomever you're studying), you're free to play it any way you want to.

It may seem like it would be a year from where you sit now, but you
will eventually be able to cop new riffs upon hearing them once. THEN,
you'll be a good harmonica player.

This is an easy instrument to make pretty noise on, an easy instrument
to play chordal accompaniment on, but a very hard instrument to master
to the degree that the 'Old Blues Guys' did. But the great part is
that you can carry it everywhere in your pocket (just like they did)
and steal opportunities to practice all through the day. Plus, you
have the tremendous advantage of having access to hundreds of texts
and millions of recorded examples to study. Most of them only had
their ears.

Be patient and determined. You can learn that stuff.
C

[GB]

Allen-

Check out my trqanscription book, " Masters of the Blues Harmonica"

http://www.celticguitarmusic.com/Masterstoc.htm

-Glenn Weiser

Hi everyone, Happy holidays and a very happy new year. I am so glad to see
the group engaged again in conversation! I think this is the best group I
ever got involved with. Yesterday I came across a harmonica site which
had the entire music for Juke. It was 3 pages long,included the notes and
tabs. I looked at it and said to myself that it would take me an entire
year to learn and memorize that , and then if I worked just on that daily
for several hours each day. I have heard very few harp players perform
Juke and always wondered if they were playing it exactly as Little Walter
did.Do any of you do get involved in such mentally strenuous exercises and
if not, how does one learn that classic with killing themselves.?Thanks.
Allen

[Harpman]

Post by GB
Allen-
Check out my trqanscription book, " Masters of the Blues Harmonica"
http://www.celticguitarmusic.com/Masterstoc.htm
-Glenn Weiser

Hi everyone, Happy holidays and a very happy new year. I am so glad to see
the group engaged again in conversation! I think this is the best group I
ever got involved with. Yesterday I came across a harmonica site which
had the entire music for Juke. It was 3 pages long,included the notes and
tabs. I looked at it and said to myself that it would take me an entire
year to learn and memorize that , and then if I worked just on that daily
for several hours each day. I have heard very few harp players perform
Juke and always wondered if they were playing it exactly as Little Walter
did.Do any of you do get involved in such mentally strenuous exercises and
if not, how does one learn that classic with killing themselves.?Thanks.
Allen

Glenn, I am familiar with your book from going to your site. Thanks. Allen