Discussion:
Kendrick's Amp Mods for Harp ?
(too old to reply)
Johnny
2005-12-17 22:43:05 UTC
Permalink
In the article "Harp Amp Secrets and Tips" (see link below), Gerald Weber
discusses mods he and the others at Kendrick can do to improve tone,
increase volume and decrease feedback.

Do any of you have any experience with an amp that Gerald has modified for
harp? If so, what were the results?

http://www.harpamps.com/weber/Guitar51.htm

Regards,
Johnny
Fuquay-Varina, NC
US
B***@aol.com
2005-12-18 00:00:18 UTC
Permalink
If Gerald Weber had anything to do with it, I can guarantee that it
kicks ass. Kendrick amps are TONE monsters...
Robbie and Laura Reynolds
2005-12-18 02:49:29 UTC
Permalink
The article mentions the Fender Tweed Deluxe (specifically the 5E3) as
being a good amp to start with for harp. I built one from Fender
schematics, and my impression was that it just didn't have any mojo at
all for good harp tone. I modified it per Weber's recommendations, and
it didn't help at all. If you want a good harp amp, there is a lot
better stuff than a Deluxe. I have some opinions about the points made
in the article also:

Point #1 about voltage may be true. I have built a bunch of circuits
that seem to sound really good with low plate voltage on the preamp
tubes, but I find that biasing has far more to do with good tube tone
than plate voltage does.

Point #2 deals with coupling caps. It is generally accepted that .1 uF
is better for harp than .05 or whatever you generally find in a guitar
amp. Nothing new here.

Point #3 says that you don't want a lot of gain stages because that
creates feedback. Ask any harp player about the 59 Bassman or the 59
Reissue Bassman and they'll tell you otherwise. The 59 Bassman has 4
preamp gain stages rather than just two that Weber recommends, and it is
generally thought of as THE quintessential blues harp amp. This is
probably because it has more stages to create compression, which is
always a good thing for harmonica.

#4 is a true Weber innovation, which I incorporated in my 5D3 copy. In
my experience, the pot in the phase inverter ground did absolutely
nothing to the amp. Maybe I should have experimented with different pot
values... Who knows. But I wasn't impressed. I should try messing
around with it some more.

#5 proves that Weber really doesn't know much beyond his own
experimentation, which is OK. I'm not trying to insult anybody. Most
of what I know about building harp amps came from looking at what
everybody else was doing and then soldering a bunch of circuits together
myself. But I really figured out what was going on when I read some old
electronic textbooks. Anyway, he is right that a cathode biased output
section is a good idea for harp tone. But beware of anybody who tries
to tell you what Class A operation means and how it happens. Read a
textbook for that kind of information.

#6 ditto. He got the right answer, but he doesn't know why. The
cathode resistor is what sets the grid bias, and the grid is what
determines the current going through the tube. He seems to be implying
that the plate voltage is what determines the current, which it does
not. Read the diagrams in a tube manual and you'll figure that out.
Anyway, the grid bias is what determines the compression in the signal,
which is one thing that determines whether a harmonica sounds good or
not. It has nothing to do with idle current. Idle current is, however,
a side effect of biasing the tube for a compressed signal.

#7 ditto again. I wouldn't build a harp amp that didn't incorporate a
tube rectifier. Weber is right on this point, tube rectifiers
contribute a lot to the tone, but he doesn't tell you the right reason
why. I hate to sound disagreeable, but the tube rectifier doesn't have
much if anything to do with compression. It has a lot to do with sag
and response, which is very important in amplified harmonica playing.
It allows you to use the performance of the amp as an expressive tool.
This also tells you why Weber thinks that idle current and cathode
biasing create a spongy response. Tube rectifiers get maxed out when
you play a loud note, and they sag and give you a grungy sound. Very
cool. If you bias your tubes for more idle current, you get more sag
and a higher cool factor because the rectifier can't keep up. But you
also shorten the life of the tubes, depending on how far you push the
performance envelope. Ask a screaming guitar player about cooking
tubes. Anyway, you could get the same effect by using a smaller
rectifier to match the exact performance demands created by the rest of
your circuit and what kind of sound you want. Saying that the GZ34 is
the "best rectifier" is kind of silly. I would always use one that is
right at the edge of its performance capability, which would depend on
how many tubes are in the amp, what output tubes you are using, and how
you bias them. I accidentally improved the sound of my gigging amp
tremendously last week by replacing the 5U4 with a 5Z3 (with a lower
current capability). I had to do it because my 5U4 burned out and I had
a gig. It sounded great.

I also suspect that Weber's "waveform symmetry" comments are another
example of trial and error success without knowing what the hell is
really going on. Acoustic feedback occurs when you have a microphone
that picks up a signal that gets added to the signal in the amp, then
comes out the speaker, gets picked up again, added to the signal in the
amp, and so on. Your microphone/amp combo will have certain "hot
frequencies" that tend to feed back, depending on where you have your
tone and volume knobs set. Feedback can be decreased by standing in
just the right spot so that your hot frequency sound waves will be out
of phase with the amp signal after traveling through the air to where
you are standing. If you always test your amp while standing at the end
of the same microphone cord, you have a pretty good chance of altering
the feedback performance by reversing the speaker polarity. In other
words, these trouble frequencies will feed back with the speaker one way
but not the other. Move to a different location in the room and you'll
have to start over.

My main point is that Weber is obviously a guy who has put a lot of amps
together and has figured out what works in a lot of cases. I suspect
that he could improve your amp's harmonica performance quite a lot
because of his experience. Just don't try to learn electronics by
reading his articles. When I first started tinkering with this stuff a
couple of years ago I read his article and tried to understand it, and
it didn't make a lot of sense, because he really doesn't know what he's
talking about. But he does know how to put an amp together.

If you're looking for an amp with good harp tone, you would probably be
much better off asking other harp players, trying every amp in the
guitar store, shopping at junk shops or ebay, or learning how they work
(I mean how they REALLY work) and modifying it yourself. Works for me.
Post by Johnny
In the article "Harp Amp Secrets and Tips" (see link below), Gerald Weber
discusses mods he and the others at Kendrick can do to improve tone,
increase volume and decrease feedback.
Do any of you have any experience with an amp that Gerald has modified for
harp? If so, what were the results?
http://www.harpamps.com/weber/Guitar51.htm
Regards,
Johnny
Fuquay-Varina, NC
US
Robbie and Laura Reynolds
2005-12-18 06:13:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robbie and Laura Reynolds
The article mentions the Fender Tweed Deluxe (specifically the 5E3) as
being a good amp to start with for harp.
Sorry, I don't want to misquote anybody. The article mentions the phase
inverter design of the 5C3 and the 5D3 but doesn't say whether either
one sounds any good. Later it mentions the Tweed Princeton, Champ and
Deluxe, noting that they all work "great for harp". Most
scratchbuilders who build from Fender schematics tend to favor the 5E3,
but I built a 5D3 and wasn't impressed. It sounded great for guitar,
though.
Robbie and Laura Reynolds
2005-12-18 15:02:01 UTC
Permalink
What kind of amp are you thinking of modifying?
Johnny
2005-12-19 01:02:06 UTC
Permalink
Robbie and Laura,

First, thanks for your candid and informative reply to my question about
Gerald's mods. I plan to try to sort through all that over the next few days
to see if I can compile "the findings." What I'd like to be able to do is
take a list of mods to a first-rate restoration shop and say, "Here, do
this."

Second, concerning your question about which amps I have in mind:

Actually, I'm thinking of two for possible restoration / mods for harp. One
is an Alamo, circa mid to late 1960's I believe. It appears to be a Fiesta
based on the gray-black covering and the logo. It has a 12" alnico speaker,
which is I think original to the amp. It appears to be Alamo's copy of the
5E3 circuit (2 x 6V6, 2 x 12AX7, 1 x 5y3). Three inputs, vibrato, which
doesn't work. (I can post pics if anyone is interested or if anyone can help
with identifying the amp more accurately.)

The Alamo is high on the cool factor, that is, based on the appearance of
the cabinet, it looks like it has been thrown out the back window of a '57
Chevy more than one. The sound--when it works--is awesome for harp. It has a
horn-like sound with a lot of depth and dimension. It is really easy to get
a lot of gritty expression from this amp, which is what I like. What I don't
like is 1) it is not reliable, and 2) it is a feedback monster.

What I have in mind for the Alamo is 1) at least, restoring the circuit to
what it should have been when new, or better yet 2) restoring it and
modifying it for harp. I'd like to find a way, if possible, to minimize the
tendency to feedback. (That's what piqued my interest in Gerald's article
and led to my original post to the newsgroup.)

I'm willing to change the speaker configuration on the Alamo if that would
help. For example, I think the cabinet as is would allow for 2 x 8". I'm
open to any other ideas about how to optimize this amp for harp.

The other amp is a Fender Vibro Champ, Silverface, 1973 based on the numbers
on the transformer. It appears to be all original and is in 90+ condition.
It sounds great as is. It has a great honky sound, and is fine as is when
mike'd. Actually, I'm thinking this might be a better candidate for
"blackfacing" instead and not doing "the Gerald mods."

I'm in North Carolina, so I'm considering Andrews Amps in Atlanta if I go
with the blackfacing for the Fender. Andrews is within driving distance for
me or a short flight from RDU to ATL.(See
http://www.andrewsamplab.com/blackfacing.htm .)

Zooming out a bit, let me ask a couple of questions:

1) For doing the kinds of mods Gerald outlines and on which you elaborate,
which are the best circuits / amps to start with as a base?

2) Any recommendations for shops in the US that can do a good job restoring
these amps? The closer to Raleigh, NC the better. I don't mind shipping, but
I prefer to visit the shop in person if possible at least to get things
started.

Thanks,
Johnny
Post by Robbie and Laura Reynolds
What kind of amp are you thinking of modifying?
Robbie and Laura Reynolds
2005-12-19 03:43:11 UTC
Permalink
First of all, I think it is hard to give a simple definitive answer on
how to tame the feedback monster. Ask Jeff, if he's reading the group
this week, and he'll tell you that there are a million amps, a million
microphones, a million speakers and maybe two million tube combinations
to try mixing together in various configurations, and you'll hit upon
the right blend that gives you good tone and manageable feedback. I had
a pretty good thing going with my homebuilt amp and vintage green
bullet, but I had to fight the feedback every time I turned it on. This
all changed when I added a volume control to my mike, believe it or
not. The feedback was cut in half, and I can't really tell you why.
Then it got better again when I changed the rectifier. I would bet you
a nickel that this is the same kind of engineering that most tube amp
gurus are doing, but they are charging an arm and a leg for their
expertise. That's why I think it's a good idea to try different
speakers, change to bigger coupling capacitors, buy a few more
microphones, etc. Because I'll bet you that you could get three
different experts to tell you "the answer", and you'll pay them a big
chunk of money, and they'll give you something that works but isn't the
one way ticket to Tone Heaven that you were expecting.

If you want a good foundation to build on for harp amp, there are dozens
of good opinions on this group. The Bassman class of amp is very
popular, which is a push-pull high volume monster with endless tonal
variations. Then there is the opposite end of the spectrum, the single
ended midget class amp such as the Kalamazoo Model I, or Oahu steel
guitar amp, and others like them. Once you have a good amp, which it
sounds like you already do, just make sure that you have a good tone
control that can cut the super high frequencies way down, make sure that
it has .1 uF coupling capacitors, and make sure that all the wiring is
secure. That's all I would do to the Alamo if it were my decision, and
I'll bet that it would work great. Hey Jeff, didn't you have an amp
tech give you a better tone control in one of your amps? That's a
simple enough plan of attack.

Regarding which amp I would recommend to start with for the Weber
modifications, I'm not sure that I would do these modifications to any
amp, except for changing the coupling capacitors. There are enough amps
out there that sound good as-is, and with a few tube swaps you could
probably have them sounding great without much trouble at all. Regular
readers on this group will tell you which amp to try. Sounds like
you're not afraid to spend a few bucks to get good tone, so ask away.
You might put the question under a new heading, though.
Post by Johnny
Robbie and Laura,
First, thanks for your candid and informative reply to my question about
Gerald's mods. I plan to try to sort through all that over the next few days
to see if I can compile "the findings." What I'd like to be able to do is
take a list of mods to a first-rate restoration shop and say, "Here, do
this."
Actually, I'm thinking of two for possible restoration / mods for harp. One
is an Alamo, circa mid to late 1960's I believe. It appears to be a Fiesta
based on the gray-black covering and the logo. It has a 12" alnico speaker,
which is I think original to the amp. It appears to be Alamo's copy of the
5E3 circuit (2 x 6V6, 2 x 12AX7, 1 x 5y3). Three inputs, vibrato, which
doesn't work. (I can post pics if anyone is interested or if anyone can help
with identifying the amp more accurately.)
The Alamo is high on the cool factor, that is, based on the appearance of
the cabinet, it looks like it has been thrown out the back window of a '57
Chevy more than one. The sound--when it works--is awesome for harp. It has a
horn-like sound with a lot of depth and dimension. It is really easy to get
a lot of gritty expression from this amp, which is what I like. What I don't
like is 1) it is not reliable, and 2) it is a feedback monster.
What I have in mind for the Alamo is 1) at least, restoring the circuit to
what it should have been when new, or better yet 2) restoring it and
modifying it for harp. I'd like to find a way, if possible, to minimize the
tendency to feedback. (That's what piqued my interest in Gerald's article
and led to my original post to the newsgroup.)
I'm willing to change the speaker configuration on the Alamo if that would
help. For example, I think the cabinet as is would allow for 2 x 8". I'm
open to any other ideas about how to optimize this amp for harp.
The other amp is a Fender Vibro Champ, Silverface, 1973 based on the numbers
on the transformer. It appears to be all original and is in 90+ condition.
It sounds great as is. It has a great honky sound, and is fine as is when
mike'd. Actually, I'm thinking this might be a better candidate for
"blackfacing" instead and not doing "the Gerald mods."
I'm in North Carolina, so I'm considering Andrews Amps in Atlanta if I go
with the blackfacing for the Fender. Andrews is within driving distance for
me or a short flight from RDU to ATL.(See
http://www.andrewsamplab.com/blackfacing.htm .)
1) For doing the kinds of mods Gerald outlines and on which you elaborate,
which are the best circuits / amps to start with as a base?
2) Any recommendations for shops in the US that can do a good job restoring
these amps? The closer to Raleigh, NC the better. I don't mind shipping, but
I prefer to visit the shop in person if possible at least to get things
started.
Thanks,
Johnny
Post by Robbie and Laura Reynolds
What kind of amp are you thinking of modifying?
Keith Adams
2005-12-22 08:55:52 UTC
Permalink
Johnny that by god Robbie knows his shit and is getting better everyday
that goes by from the looks of it. I'm gonna butt in here for a second
though. Your Silverfaced Vibro Champ is already Blackfaced. CBS never
changed the circuits on the Champs and Princeton/ Princeton Reverbs
besides the value of one resistor. I could be wrong of course but
from looking at schematics and reading it in print more times than I
can remember I believe its correct.

"Johnny" <***@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:iEnpf.6785$***@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
Robbie and Laura,

First, thanks for your candid and informative reply to my question
about
Gerald's mods. I plan to try to sort through all that over the next few
days
to see if I can compile "the findings." What I'd like to be able to do
is
take a list of mods to a first-rate restoration shop and say, "Here, do
this."

Second, concerning your question about which amps I have in mind:

Actually, I'm thinking of two for possible restoration / mods for harp.
One
is an Alamo, circa mid to late 1960's I believe. It appears to be a
Fiesta
based on the gray-black covering and the logo. It has a 12" alnico
speaker,
which is I think original to the amp. It appears to be Alamo's copy of
the
5E3 circuit (2 x 6V6, 2 x 12AX7, 1 x 5y3). Three inputs, vibrato, which
doesn't work. (I can post pics if anyone is interested or if anyone can
help
with identifying the amp more accurately.)

The Alamo is high on the cool factor, that is, based on the appearance
of
the cabinet, it looks like it has been thrown out the back window of a
'57
Chevy more than one. The sound--when it works--is awesome for harp. It
has a
horn-like sound with a lot of depth and dimension. It is really easy to
get
a lot of gritty expression from this amp, which is what I like. What I
don't
like is 1) it is not reliable, and 2) it is a feedback monster.

What I have in mind for the Alamo is 1) at least, restoring the circuit
to
what it should have been when new, or better yet 2) restoring it and
modifying it for harp. I'd like to find a way, if possible, to minimize
the
tendency to feedback. (That's what piqued my interest in Gerald's
article
and led to my original post to the newsgroup.)

I'm willing to change the speaker configuration on the Alamo if that
would
help. For example, I think the cabinet as is would allow for 2 x 8".
I'm
open to any other ideas about how to optimize this amp for harp.

The other amp is a Fender Vibro Champ, Silverface, 1973 based on the
numbers
on the transformer. It appears to be all original and is in 90+
condition.
It sounds great as is. It has a great honky sound, and is fine as is
when
mike'd. Actually, I'm thinking this might be a better candidate for
"blackfacing" instead and not doing "the Gerald mods."

I'm in North Carolina, so I'm considering Andrews Amps in Atlanta if I
go
with the blackfacing for the Fender. Andrews is within driving distance
for
me or a short flight from RDU to ATL.(See
http://www.andrewsamplab.com/blackfacing.htm .)

Zooming out a bit, let me ask a couple of questions:

1) For doing the kinds of mods Gerald outlines and on which you
elaborate,
which are the best circuits / amps to start with as a base?

2) Any recommendations for shops in the US that can do a good job
restoring
these amps? The closer to Raleigh, NC the better. I don't mind
shipping, but
I prefer to visit the shop in person if possible at least to get things
started.

Thanks,
Johnny
Post by Robbie and Laura Reynolds
What kind of amp are you thinking of modifying?
Johnny
2005-12-22 12:53:38 UTC
Permalink
Keith,

Yes, I think you're right about the Vibro Champ. Two other sources--Jeff at
Andrews Amp Lab and Gerald at Kendrick--told me basically the same thing.
For example, although Jeff could have done some work the Champ (because at
the time, I didn't know any better), he declined saying that there was
really no substantive difference in the blackface and the silverface VC's
like mine. He said he could check it out overall but that "blackfacing" that
type of amp was superfluous.

BTW, I'd like to thank you, Robbie and all the other regular contributors to
alt.music.harmonica for your informative and kind postings and for your
recent replies to my inquiries. I've been reading the newsgroup for some
time now, and this thread is my first request for info. The responses have
been great--very informative and helpful.

Robbie expressed interest in seeing the circuit of the old Alamo amp
discussed earlier (remember the Alamo?), so I was planning to take some pics
of it and send them to him. If you think others might be interested in
seeing that old Fender wannbe, I could post the pics to the newsgroup
instead. What do you think?
--
Johnny
Post by Keith Adams
Johnny that by god Robbie knows his shit and is getting better everyday
that goes by from the looks of it. I'm gonna butt in here for a second
though. Your Silverfaced Vibro Champ is already Blackfaced. CBS never
changed the circuits on the Champs and Princeton/ Princeton Reverbs
besides the value of one resistor. I could be wrong of course but
from looking at schematics and reading it in print more times than I
can remember I believe its correct.
Robbie and Laura,
First, thanks for your candid and informative reply to my question about
Gerald's mods. I plan to try to sort through all that over the next few days
to see if I can compile "the findings." What I'd like to be able to do is
take a list of mods to a first-rate restoration shop and say, "Here, do
this."
Actually, I'm thinking of two for possible restoration / mods for harp. One
is an Alamo, circa mid to late 1960's I believe. It appears to be a Fiesta
based on the gray-black covering and the logo. It has a 12" alnico speaker,
which is I think original to the amp. It appears to be Alamo's copy of the
5E3 circuit (2 x 6V6, 2 x 12AX7, 1 x 5y3). Three inputs, vibrato, which
doesn't work. (I can post pics if anyone is interested or if anyone can help
with identifying the amp more accurately.)
The Alamo is high on the cool factor, that is, based on the appearance of
the cabinet, it looks like it has been thrown out the back window of a '57
Chevy more than one. The sound--when it works--is awesome for harp. It has a
horn-like sound with a lot of depth and dimension. It is really easy to get
a lot of gritty expression from this amp, which is what I like. What I don't
like is 1) it is not reliable, and 2) it is a feedback monster.
What I have in mind for the Alamo is 1) at least, restoring the circuit to
what it should have been when new, or better yet 2) restoring it and
modifying it for harp. I'd like to find a way, if possible, to minimize the
tendency to feedback. (That's what piqued my interest in Gerald's article
and led to my original post to the newsgroup.)
I'm willing to change the speaker configuration on the Alamo if that would
help. For example, I think the cabinet as is would allow for 2 x 8". I'm
open to any other ideas about how to optimize this amp for harp.
The other amp is a Fender Vibro Champ, Silverface, 1973 based on the numbers
on the transformer. It appears to be all original and is in 90+ condition.
It sounds great as is. It has a great honky sound, and is fine as is when
mike'd. Actually, I'm thinking this might be a better candidate for
"blackfacing" instead and not doing "the Gerald mods."
I'm in North Carolina, so I'm considering Andrews Amps in Atlanta if I go
with the blackfacing for the Fender. Andrews is within driving distance for
me or a short flight from RDU to ATL.(See
http://www.andrewsamplab.com/blackfacing.htm .)
1) For doing the kinds of mods Gerald outlines and on which you elaborate,
which are the best circuits / amps to start with as a base?
2) Any recommendations for shops in the US that can do a good job restoring
these amps? The closer to Raleigh, NC the better. I don't mind
shipping, but
I prefer to visit the shop in person if possible at least to get things
started.
Thanks,
Johnny
Post by Robbie and Laura Reynolds
What kind of amp are you thinking of modifying?
Robbie and Laura Reynolds
2005-12-22 23:18:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Johnny
of it and send them to him. If you think others might be interested in
seeing that old Fender wannbe, I could post the pics to the newsgroup
instead. What do you think?
Unfortunately you can't post binary files in a text group. They'll just
get thrown out by the news servers and we'll see only the text here on
the group, or no message at all. You need to post them on the space
that you get with your online account, or one of those places where
people are invited to share photos online... can't think of the names of
those sites off the top of my head for some reason...

Elmo' 7#9
2005-12-19 14:16:16 UTC
Permalink
In the 1980's, I biased the output valves
of a Marshall 100 watt head
so cold that there was crossover distortion.

This made the output stage of the amp
act like a noise gate -
signals below the threshold didn't get through at all.

It was pretty useless for guitar
(unless you're after a "verge of destruction" tone),
but sounded good with harmonica
and the gating action of the output stage
really helped cut feedback when I wasn't playing.

A Noise Gate pedal would do the job just as well.


For the feedback-plagued,
the Behringer Shark
can search-and-destroy feedback in real time
and only costs £59 (GBP).

Elmo' 7#9
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