Discussion:
Reverend 40/60 Hellhound
(too old to reply)
John Agosta
2008-03-26 01:14:14 UTC
Permalink
I inherited this amplifier.

Anyone here have any opinions on it - generally, and maybe some regarding
playing harp through it ?

(I'm still saving up for my FatDog......)
Robert Reynolds
2008-03-26 04:19:03 UTC
Permalink
They have always had a Reverend amp at Knuckleheads in Kansas City for
the jam session. Before I had my own amps I used to use the Reverend,
and unfortunately I was not impressed with the tone. It's kind of thin,
with a fair amount of 12AX7 preamp crunch that sounds like a heavy metal
guitar, but no compression or power tube drive to get excited about. It
might have gotten better with a tube swap, but I didn't ever get the chance.

I have a friend who loves his Reverend, but he's a guitar player.
Post by John Agosta
I inherited this amplifier.
Anyone here have any opinions on it - generally, and maybe some regarding
playing harp through it ?
(I'm still saving up for my FatDog......)
John Agosta
2008-03-29 01:42:32 UTC
Permalink
They have always had a Reverend amp at Knuckleheads in Kansas City for the
jam session. Before I had my own amps I used to use the Reverend, and
unfortunately I was not impressed with the tone. It's kind of thin, with
a fair amount of 12AX7 preamp crunch that sounds like a heavy metal
guitar, but no compression or power tube drive to get excited about. It
might have gotten better with a tube swap, but I didn't ever get the chance.
I have a friend who loves his Reverend, but he's a guitar player.
Post by John Agosta
I inherited this amplifier.
Anyone here have any opinions on it - generally, and maybe some regarding
playing harp through it ?
(I'm still saving up for my FatDog......)
Robbie - email me privately.
I could use some advice/suggestions, and I have some stuff that you might be
able to use of
in your Grandpah Munster laboratory....

-lock
RawFoodGuy
2008-03-26 08:59:58 UTC
Permalink
Reverend amps sell on eBay for aboout $450-500. So though you could
mess around with tube swaps and may be improve the tone a bit, you
could also sell the amp as a great guitar amp to a guitarist that
would really appreciate it, and use the $500 towards your new, custom
Fat Dog harp amp - and know that you'll be getting great harp tone! I
wouldn't trade my FatDog for any guitar amp no matter what it was.
However, if you want to fool aroound with tube swaps first, I bet Rob
could give you some great advice about that.

- Robert
www.rawfoodlife.com
Keith Adams
2008-03-26 15:42:09 UTC
Permalink
Hey rawfood. Distortion isnt great tone. You couldnt
beg,borrow,steal,coax,threaten or force a good tone out of a Fatdog Amp
because there arent any in it. I think harp players are turning to that
sound because it saves them the time it takes to learn how to play their
instrument. The so called good harp tone standards didnt come about by
choice. It came from using mics that werent designed for accurate sound
reproduction and low powered amps that couldnt get enough volume before they
distorted. In other words. Inadequate equipment. That sound wasnt
intentional and was probably unwanted. After awhile numb nut beginner harp
players started trying to emulate their heros terrible tone.
Post by John Agosta
I inherited this amplifier.
Anyone here have any opinions on it - generally, and maybe some regarding
playing harp through it ?
(I'm still saving up for my FatDog......)
John
2008-03-26 16:51:31 UTC
Permalink
RawFoodGuy,

One man's 'tone' can be another's 'distortion'.

Not all tone is desirable, nor is all distortion undesirable.

Many forms of (or presentation of) music rely on distortion for
identity. Distortion is often used to present or reinforce feeling or
emotion. Not necessarily a good or bad thing.

When a piece of electronic or mechanical equipment (including hands,
mouth, tongue, throat muscles, lungs, diaphragm) changes the pure tone
of an instrument it can be considered modulation, distortion,
enhancement, etc. Even harp reeds' sound can be distorted, by air
pressure, velocity, etc.

Voice can be 'distorted' by merely tightening or relaxing head and chest
muscles.

Why is it that pick techniques that cause an amp to deliver something
'unpure' but desirable, please some, but not others?

To define "distortion" as "great" or 'not great' can be arrogant,
meaningless, and often too subjective to be considered a standard.

For so-called experts to define their subjectiveness as a standard, and
to consider neophytes' attempts to emulate the original sound of
ground-breaking artists as "numb nuts" is also arrogant and meaningless.

Why is it that, in spite of high and mighty pronouncements by some
ego-maximus players, that some long time very accomplished artists still
employ certain kinds of distortion in their music?

Are those great artists that still use saturated tube grids and plates,
and voltage adjustment to enhance their "tone", "numb nuts" for not
using acoustically pure equipment?

Even the back of a Strad adds something that the strings, resin, and bow
cannot achieve.

Tone vs. distortion is not a black and white issue...

Do what you like, play it like you feel it, make it sound like YOU want,
...and don't take some folks on this newsgroup too seriously.








TONE:
–noun
1. any sound considered with reference to its quality, pitch, strength,
source, etc.: shrill tones.
2. quality or character of sound.
3. vocal sound; the sound made by vibrating muscular bands in the larynx.
4. a particular quality, way of sounding, modulation, or intonation of
the voice as expressive of some meaning, feeling, spirit, etc.: a tone
of command.
5. an accent peculiar to a person, people, locality, etc., or a
characteristic mode of sounding words in speech.
6. stress of voice on a syllable of a word.
7. Linguistics. a musical pitch or movement in pitch serving to
distinguish two words otherwise composed of the same sounds, as in Chinese.
8. Music.
a. a musical sound of definite pitch, consisting of several relatively
simple constituents called partial tones, the lowest of which is called
the fundamental tone and the others harmonics or overtones.
b. an interval equivalent to two semitones; a whole tone; a whole step.
c. any of the nine melodies or tunes to which Gregorian plainsong psalms
are sung.
9. a quality of color with reference to the degree of absorption or
reflection of light; a tint or shade; value.
10. that distinctive quality by which colors differ from one another in
addition to their differences indicated by chroma, tint, shade; a slight
modification of a given color; hue: green with a yellowish tone.
11. Art. the prevailing effect of harmony of color and values.
12. Physiology.
a. the normal state of tension or responsiveness of the organs or
tissues of the body.
b. that state of the body or of an organ in which all its functions are
performed with healthy vigor.
c. normal sensitivity to stimulation.
13. a normal healthy mental condition.
14. a particular mental state or disposition; spirit, character, or tenor.
15. a particular style or manner, as of writing or speech; mood: the
macabre tone of Poe's stories.
16. prevailing character or style, as of manners, morals, or
philosophical outlook: the liberal tone of the 1960's.
17. style, distinction, or elegance.
–verb (used with object)
18. to sound with a particular tone.
19. to give the proper tone to (a musical instrument).
20. to modify the tone or general coloring of.
21. to give the desired tone to (a painting, drawing, etc.).
22. Photography. to change the color of (a print), esp. by chemical means.
23. to render as specified in tone or coloring.
24. to modify the tone or character of.
25. to give or restore physical or mental tone to.
–verb (used without object)
26. to take on a particular tone; assume color or tint.
—Verb phrases
27. tone down,
a. to become or cause to become softened or moderated: The newspaper
toned down its attack.
b. Painting. to make (a color) less intense in hue; subdue.
28. tone up,
a. to give a higher or stronger tone to.
b. to gain or cause to gain in tone or strength: toning up little-used
muscles.
29. tone with or in with, to harmonize in tone or coloring; blend: The
painting tones with the room.
[Origin: 1275–1325; ME (n.) < L tonus < Gk tónos strain, tone, mode,
lit., a stretching, akin to teínein to stretch]
Post by Keith Adams
Hey rawfood. Distortion isnt great tone. You couldnt
beg,borrow,steal,coax,threaten or force a good tone out of a Fatdog Amp
because there arent any in it. I think harp players are turning to that
sound because it saves them the time it takes to learn how to play their
instrument. The so called good harp tone standards didnt come about by
choice. It came from using mics that werent designed for accurate sound
reproduction and low powered amps that couldnt get enough volume before they
distorted. In other words. Inadequate equipment. That sound wasnt
intentional and was probably unwanted. After awhile numb nut beginner harp
players started trying to emulate their heros terrible tone.
Post by John Agosta
I inherited this amplifier.
Anyone here have any opinions on it - generally, and maybe some regarding
playing harp through it ?
(I'm still saving up for my FatDog......)
Robert Reynolds
2008-03-26 23:07:50 UTC
Permalink
You appear to be suggesting that musicians of the 1950s weren't
intelligent or creative enough to choose among the available equipment
to achieve exactly the sound they wanted. What makes you think that
Little Walter didn't want that magical sound that moans like a human
voice and has just a touch of crunch on the note attacks? Those guys
were smart. They knew what they were doing.

Keith, you've achieved a new level of absurdity. Congratulations. I'm
sure you can surpass even this high standard if you put your mind to it.
I have faith in you.
Post by Keith Adams
Hey rawfood. Distortion isnt great tone. You couldnt
beg,borrow,steal,coax,threaten or force a good tone out of a Fatdog Amp
because there arent any in it. I think harp players are turning to that
sound because it saves them the time it takes to learn how to play their
instrument. The so called good harp tone standards didnt come about by
choice. It came from using mics that werent designed for accurate sound
reproduction and low powered amps that couldnt get enough volume before they
distorted. In other words. Inadequate equipment. That sound wasnt
intentional and was probably unwanted. After awhile numb nut beginner harp
players started trying to emulate their heros terrible tone.
Eric Stahl
2008-03-27 05:27:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Reynolds
You appear to be suggesting that musicians of the 1950s weren't
intelligent or creative enough to choose among the available equipment
to achieve exactly the sound they wanted. What makes you think that
Little Walter didn't want that magical sound that moans like a human
voice and has just a touch of crunch on the note attacks? Those guys
were smart. They knew what they were doing.
Keith, you've achieved a new level of absurdity. Congratulations. I'm
sure you can surpass even this high standard if you put your mind to it.
I have faith in you.
Post by Keith Adams
Hey rawfood. Distortion isnt great tone. You couldnt
beg,borrow,steal,coax,threaten or force a good tone out of a Fatdog Amp
because there arent any in it. I think harp players are turning to that
sound because it saves them the time it takes to learn how to play their
instrument. The so called good harp tone standards didnt come about by
choice. It came from using mics that werent designed for accurate sound
reproduction and low powered amps that couldnt get enough volume before they
distorted. In other words. Inadequate equipment. That sound wasnt
intentional and was probably unwanted. After awhile numb nut beginner harp
players started trying to emulate their heros terrible tone.
Ah, come on :-) There's usually truth on both sides of any argument.

Keith makes an excellent point - a good harp player will sound good
through any equipment including a plastic cup or a shower stall.

And effects are just flat-out fun to play with. And that does not mean
that I find Robbies amps are at all effects heavy - but adding cool
tubed dimensions to the sound of that instrument that we all love ;-)

The more I learn about playing [amplified] harp, the more I want to
own one of Robbies amps - and also keep my old Kalamazoo... and the
more I realize that I need to really listen to what I'm playing with
no effects added... or through an amp that only amplifies, including
amplifying every mistake I'm making.

-Eric
Robert Reynolds
2008-03-27 12:53:51 UTC
Permalink
Of course, you'll never sound good unless you have learned to sound
good. The question was about amps, some of which sound better than others.

Thanks for your continued enthusiasm about my amps. I really appreciate
it.
Post by Eric Stahl
Keith makes an excellent point - a good harp player will sound good
through any equipment including a plastic cup or a shower stall.
RawFoodGuy
2008-03-27 14:41:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Reynolds
Of course, you'll never sound good unless you have learned to sound
good. The question was about amps, some of which sound better than others.
Thanks for your continued enthusiasm about my amps. I really appreciate
it.
Post by Eric Stahl
Keith makes an excellent point - a good harp player will sound good
through any equipment including a plastic cup or a shower stall.
I didn't mean to start yet another discussion on acoustic versus
amplified tone, or distortion...I was just trying to help inspire John
to get a little closer to his stated goal of buying a FatDog amp. I
wouldn't have started another discussion like that, since it may be
one of the most over-discussed subjects on harp forums lately. I dare
you to go on any harp forum and discuss the "tone" of an amp without
someone just having to mention that tone is in the player not the amp.
Give me a break already - we all know that. There are appropriate
threads to bring that up in, like when a new player is asking about
how to get that great tone, but not, in my opinion, every time someone
brings up tone in an amp - and I said it that way intentionally
because amps do have TONE. If you insist on getting painfully
technical, "distortion" is a physical/electronic property, or
limitation, of an amp that affects its tone. Your playing style,
cupping, breathing, vibrato, etc., are also physically-based
characteristics that affect your tone. When combined you get more than
the sum of the parts, causing sensations in blues bars around the
country and creating the dreaded addiction among harp players that I
myself suffer from, called gear-itis, as we search the world over for
vintage amps, and spend irresponsibly our gas money on more amps we do
not need. When people listen to music, whether guitar or blues harp,
that hits that magical spot in the amp where it just starts to break
up nicely, they hear TONE. The audience doesn't know from
"distortion."

Perhaps harp amp builders need to develop a test, or have auditions or
something, to see if potential customers are qualified to play through
their amps before selling them, helter skelter, irresponsibly to poor
harp players that pathetically confuse distortion with tone. Sorry
John, you may not cut the mustard. Rob, please don't sell a FatDog to
harp players unless they can demonstrate to your satisfaction that
they can produce good tone without your amp.

Just kiddiing, of course, or being sarcastic. Go for it John - because
FatDogs have more TONE for the dollar than any other amp out there.
Before I had a FatDog, I got no respect from the house band at my
local blues bar. The first time I played a jam using the FatDog, I
heard, as I started playing, the drummer say to the lead guitar,
literally, "hey, where's THAT sound coming from?" And he wasn't
referring to feedback or distortion, it was the amazing "tone" he
suddenly heard coming from the FatDog. I play with strong tone in any
situation, and had beein playing on a GB thru the PA up to then, or
even the vocal mic, with what I believe to be strong tone - but that
so called distortion justs adds something, and it is something
musical, something that adds a texture and flavor to the music beyond
what note is being played with whatever level of technical skill, a
feeling that comes thru in the blues, in the words, in the singing
styles, even in the distortion. Another time, I let our S. Florida
Blues Society use my FatDog at a harmonica blowout with 15 of the best
harp players in Florida. I was replacing a blown '59 Bassman they had
intended to use. None of the harp players complained about the
FatDog's distortion - instead, most of them came up to me afterwards
to ask me about this great sounding amp they never heard of before.
Maybe I should have lectured them on the difference between tone and
distortion. NOT :-)

- Robert
www.rawfoodlife.com
Robert Reynolds
2008-03-27 19:20:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by RawFoodGuy
something, to see if potential customers are qualified to play through
their amps before selling them, helter skelter, irresponsibly to poor
harp players that pathetically confuse distortion with tone. Sorry
John, you may not cut the mustard. Rob, please don't sell a FatDog to
harp players unless they can demonstrate to your satisfaction that
they can produce good tone without your amp.
FYI, don't worry about John. He's a good musician. I heard him play
when he tried my amp prototypes at my house in Kansas City over a year
ago. And he's the guy pictured on the front page of my website.

The guys I'm concerned about are the ones who have been playing for 30
years and still don't have the ear to discern the difference between a
Bassman and a Valco. Those guys are nothing but trouble.

You make an excellent point about the stupid argument that always arises
every time somebody mentions what a particular amp sounds like. Do
guitar connoisseurs act the same way? Do they just have to say that a
good guitar player will sound good on any guitar whenever somebody asks
about a great guitar? What about piano players?

Why would a great musician want to use just any instrument anyway? I
play sax in addition to harp, just well enough to get along at a blues
jam. Even though I'm not a great player I can easily tell the
difference between a good saxophone and a piece of crap, having tried
both. Is it worthwhile to say that a good sax player can sound good on
any instrument? What would be the point? I love my Borgani I got from
ebay for $70. It's full of dents, but it's a great horn and it plays
very well, even if I don't. When I worked at a music store a few
summers ago I had the pleasure of trying a Selmer Balanced Action alto
from the 1930s. What an instrument!

Can we finally stop arguing about where good tone comes from, especially
when the question was about an AMP? Go ahead and get a good instrument.
It will inspire you to be a better musician.
John Agosta
2008-03-28 17:09:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by RawFoodGuy
something, to see if potential customers are qualified to play through
their amps before selling them, helter skelter, irresponsibly to poor
harp players that pathetically confuse distortion with tone. Sorry
John, you may not cut the mustard. Rob, please don't sell a FatDog to
harp players unless they can demonstrate to your satisfaction that
they can produce good tone without your amp.
FYI, don't worry about John. He's a good musician. I heard him play when
he tried my amp prototypes at my house in Kansas City over a year ago.
And he's the guy pictured on the front page of my website.
The guys I'm concerned about are the ones who have been playing for 30
years and still don't have the ear to discern the difference between a
Bassman and a Valco. Those guys are nothing but trouble.
You make an excellent point about the stupid argument that always arises
every time somebody mentions what a particular amp sounds like. Do guitar
connoisseurs act the same way? Do they just have to say that a good
guitar player will sound good on any guitar whenever somebody asks about a
great guitar? What about piano players?
Why would a great musician want to use just any instrument anyway? I play
sax in addition to harp, just well enough to get along at a blues jam.
Even though I'm not a great player I can easily tell the difference
between a good saxophone and a piece of crap, having tried both. Is it
worthwhile to say that a good sax player can sound good on any instrument?
What would be the point? I love my Borgani I got from ebay for $70. It's
full of dents, but it's a great horn and it plays very well, even if I
don't. When I worked at a music store a few summers ago I had the
pleasure of trying a Selmer Balanced Action alto from the 1930s. What an
instrument!
Can we finally stop arguing about where good tone comes from, especially
when the question was about an AMP? Go ahead and get a good instrument.
It will inspire you to be a better musician.
I am in a windowless room, with the lights turned off, and watching the
sparks fly......

Well, I just got back from Alaska and had the opportunity to use the
Reverend and also
a Bruno 'Tweety' at a couple jams. I felt they both performed well enough,
and get this -
I had a few people say, "I love your tone, John!"

Too bad I hadn't read all this first, I could have told them, "that's not
tone, that's distortion...."


My "inheritance" came from my brother, who passed.
He had a very sizable collection of guitars, amps, and hundreds, I've never
seen so many - tubes.

Anyway, I shipped 'em both back home with me, with a couple of his guitars.
One of which
he was playing when we were both in high school together, in the 70s.
They have value, sentimental, if anything, and my brother will be with me
everytime I plug them in.

I'll be using both of 'em, including my old standard Realistic, depending I
guess, on my mood at the time.

But - I'm still gonna add a Fatty to my collection, because I know how much
I like 'em.

-johnny
Eric Stahl
2008-04-06 03:17:38 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 27 Mar 2008 07:41:12 -0700 (PDT), RawFoodGuy
Post by RawFoodGuy
Post by Robert Reynolds
Of course, you'll never sound good unless you have learned to sound
good. The question was about amps, some of which sound better than others.
Thanks for your continued enthusiasm about my amps. I really appreciate
it.
Post by Eric Stahl
Keith makes an excellent point - a good harp player will sound good
through any equipment including a plastic cup or a shower stall.
I didn't mean to start yet another discussion on acoustic versus
amplified tone, or distortion...I was just trying to help inspire John
to get a little closer to his stated goal of buying a FatDog amp. I
wouldn't have started another discussion like that, since it may be
one of the most over-discussed subjects on harp forums lately. I dare
you to go on any harp forum and discuss the "tone" of an amp without
someone just having to mention that tone is in the player not the amp.
Give me a break already - we all know that. There are appropriate
threads to bring that up in, like when a new player is asking about
how to get that great tone, but not, in my opinion, every time someone
brings up tone in an amp - and I said it that way intentionally
because amps do have TONE. If you insist on getting painfully
technical, "distortion" is a physical/electronic property, or
limitation, of an amp that affects its tone. Your playing style,
cupping, breathing, vibrato, etc., are also physically-based
characteristics that affect your tone. When combined you get more than
the sum of the parts, causing sensations in blues bars around the
country and creating the dreaded addiction among harp players that I
myself suffer from, called gear-itis, as we search the world over for
vintage amps, and spend irresponsibly our gas money on more amps we do
not need. When people listen to music, whether guitar or blues harp,
that hits that magical spot in the amp where it just starts to break
up nicely, they hear TONE. The audience doesn't know from
"distortion."
Perhaps harp amp builders need to develop a test, or have auditions or
something, to see if potential customers are qualified to play through
their amps before selling them, helter skelter, irresponsibly to poor
harp players that pathetically confuse distortion with tone. Sorry
John, you may not cut the mustard. Rob, please don't sell a FatDog to
harp players unless they can demonstrate to your satisfaction that
they can produce good tone without your amp.
Just kiddiing, of course, or being sarcastic. Go for it John - because
FatDogs have more TONE for the dollar than any other amp out there.
Before I had a FatDog, I got no respect from the house band at my
local blues bar. The first time I played a jam using the FatDog, I
heard, as I started playing, the drummer say to the lead guitar,
literally, "hey, where's THAT sound coming from?" And he wasn't
referring to feedback or distortion, it was the amazing "tone" he
suddenly heard coming from the FatDog. I play with strong tone in any
situation, and had beein playing on a GB thru the PA up to then, or
even the vocal mic, with what I believe to be strong tone - but that
so called distortion justs adds something, and it is something
musical, something that adds a texture and flavor to the music beyond
what note is being played with whatever level of technical skill, a
feeling that comes thru in the blues, in the words, in the singing
styles, even in the distortion. Another time, I let our S. Florida
Blues Society use my FatDog at a harmonica blowout with 15 of the best
harp players in Florida. I was replacing a blown '59 Bassman they had
intended to use. None of the harp players complained about the
FatDog's distortion - instead, most of them came up to me afterwards
to ask me about this great sounding amp they never heard of before.
Maybe I should have lectured them on the difference between tone and
distortion. NOT :-)
- Robert
www.rawfoodlife.com
Man RFG, it sounds like I sure smashed your toes or something.

I was simply responding to Keith's comment that was much more a matter
of opinion than a fact. I do seem to agree with most of what you say
Keith ;-)

Eric

Butcherknife
2008-03-27 14:27:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Keith Adams
Hey rawfood. Distortion isnt great tone. You couldnt
beg,borrow,steal,coax,threaten or force a good tone out of a Fatdog Amp
because there arent any in it.
i believe you adams, i pretty sure you couldn't get tone out
of anything. hold up, maybe you could get decent tone out
of a kazoo.
Post by Keith Adams
It came from using mics that werent designed for accurate sound
reproduction and low powered amps that couldnt get enough volume before they
distorted. In other words. Inadequate equipment.
so your admitting that the mic's you made and sold
awhile back are just "inadequate equipment".
Post by Keith Adams
That sound wasnt
intentional and was probably unwanted. After awhile numb nut beginner harp
players started trying to emulate their heros terrible tone.
you don't know your ass from a hole in the ground. when it comes to tone
or anything for that matter.
shut your pie hole bitch boy adams
--
Lop some Boogie
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